Hello Josiah,
I wanted to start by saying that I'm very happy you've engaged in the conversation.
I just want to make a clarification, before entering the discussion, since it seems that this point was confused again:
we're talking about different samples, which were also found to be contaminated. The one we sequenced in collaboration with EMBL is different from the one sent to Bavaria. In addition, Wolfgang Nellen also mentioned that other groups in Germany have done similar analysis on their own samples and found a contamination. So we're not talking of an isolated case, but here we have at least 2 cases.
I also wanted to point that your response now is very different from the one you had at that time, which was dismissive of the claims, to say the least. However, I welcome the current approach, more open to discussion and to feedback. Moreover, from what you say, now the production has changed in many ways, and if the situation has improved, that's good for everyone.
It seems to me that you want to restrict what has happened to a mistake in the QA, that can happen of course, but I think it goes beyond that and I care here for a broader discussion:
What biohackers (or DIYbio) are, as a community, is grounded on the actions of every single member. And biohackers are an heterogeneous community, so people very different in their ideas share a common label. Sometimes someone does something and we get all labeled that way, like it or not. You can see it with what has happened recently in DIY gene therapies. I've read your comment of facebook, you protested because the approach of Ascend Biotech was infringing, and I'm quoting, "number one rule of biohacking", that is "never put another person's life at risk". And of course you don't want to share the label of biohackers with them, because you care, and that's why you call them "not legit".
This applies when you or me do something as well. Different story but same reasoning, try to apply it to the DIY CRISPR kits. Maybe it was a tiny mistake, maybe it was a sistematic contamination, but the authorities in Germany thought that the kit was putting people at risk and promptly stopped it. Now, you might have improved the production, but here biohackers are labeled *also* on the basis of that event as "those people that don't know what they're working with".
The ban is still in place, virtually the authorities don't know if the situation has improved or not. And biohackers might pay the consequences of that action, your action, for long time. Hopefully, with what we have done has helped a bit to make things better. It was certainly a way to show how things can be done differently, more responsibly.
If the community cares about what it gets associated with under this big umbrella term that is "biohacking", there's only one way and that is "rules", like the one you were citing. Of course that rule is not written anywhere, but we do have, luckily, the DIYbio code of conduct. Maybe it's not perfect, but that's a start. And that's looking at that code that we decided to take action.
Otherwise we might well start distributing white hats and black hats.
So, I'd like to invite you to rethink what happened with the DIY CRISPR kits, in the same way you have done regarding you self-experimentation on myostatin. You wrote regarding that "I want to apologize, in that I could have inspired people to think I was doing things on a whim when I was not". Well, it looked the same with the DIY CRISPR kits.
It seems now that you are willing to improve the kit and making it safer, better. That's great.
Maybe, we could arrange a common discussion, so that the whole community might gain from these thoughts.
Maybe, we could arrange a common discussion, so that the whole community might gain from these thoughts.
Best,
Marco
On Monday, 5 February 2018 21:26:15 UTC+1, Josiah Zayner wrote:
On Monday, 5 February 2018 21:26:15 UTC+1, Josiah Zayner wrote:
Hey All,Quick comment.The contamination that is suggested to have happened occurred over a year ago(1.5 years ago we sent the kit to Bavaria). The EU put out responses and we put out responses also around a year ago, this is like digging up dead bacteria. We don't even work at the same facility we did then, we now ship the bacteria in a different manner. Even so contamination can happen. I have gotten contaminated stabs from other companies and they just send a replacement. This isn't food and as the EU said that if you did somehow manage to eat the bacteria they are not considered deadly and there are common treatments. They also said even if the kit was contaminated kit it was very low risk. I don't know what else I can say in response?Wolfgang, we don't even use the same plasmids or bacteria that were shipped to you in 2016. We changed the system completely so it has higher efficiency. Sorry, it didn't work for you. I didn't respond to whatever email you sent because I didn't know what you were looking for in a response? I didn't know how I could help? The old kit and DNA was based exactly off a published paper which we verified the results of. So even if you blame our kit you are also saying the peer reviewed paper is wrong. Maybe it is? Who knows? If you feel slighted by us and want a refund I will give it to you.We are working on a new kit that should be out soon that inserts GFP into the genome. We know the antibiotic resistance thing is weird to non-scientists and are trying to change that.You all tell me what it would take to resolve these things and I will see what I can do. Please let me know how I can help.Thanks,Josiah
On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-8, Wolfgang Nellen wrote:From the Germans (science bridge): still the same. Got new bacteria from Don Court, we get StrepR but no correct editing. Our post on Odiham Page is not released. Zayner does not respond to mail.
On 15 Jan 2018 03:15, "August Pamplona" <cosm...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 9:01:47 AM UTC-5, Wolfgang Nellen wrote:--Did you get any response from the Germans yet?
Concerning communication: is there anything like a Facebook site where all communities could talk to each other and discuss issues like the kit? I guess the authorities do not have a clue where the DIY communities are!Hi,
There are some. Try https://www.facebook.com/groups/diybio/ and https://www.facebook.com/groups/769326966539324/ . This might be relevant too: https://www.facebook.com/groups/biohackacademy/
Also, if you are into fungi these might be sort of relevant: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ & https://www.facebook.com/FungalSequencing/ groups/fungalmaterials/ There are many other possible matches.
AugustOn 22 Dec 2017 20:00, "Vanessa lorenzo toquero" <vloren...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi,
I introduce myself. Vanessa Lorenzo from Hackuarium biohackerspace in Renens, Switzerland, co-leading it together with Rachel Aronoff and the board,
Just to inform that we had a kit from the Odin at the lab. We decided to get in contact with the German authorities who suggested that our kit might also be contaminated. We sent them the kit.
We also got better informed on how our community could contribute better to the DIY Bio movement. A more dynamic dialogue between the authorities and the affected peers of the DIY Bio movement would had been more desirable but we are now navigating between different landscapes with different time scales and communication protocols. We should push for a better more transparent ones, and of course our door is literally transparent and always open on Wednesdays or on appointment (basically cause we are volunteers and have side jobs or even lives!). Having a constructive and responsible attitude towards the issues we face could help shaping the science we dream of.
Best regards
Vanessa
El viernes, 22 de diciembre de 2017, 9:52:09 (UTC+1), Jonathan Ferooz escribió:Nathan I think you are wrong, in Belgium we are very interested to collaborate with other groups (and I'm sure in other EU countries too). But in contrast with some other groups we are a small group with no funding.
What do you think we can do?
We are pushing, at our level, to show what is the DIYbio and hope that we'll can adapt our laws to facilitate the DIYbio.
In europe just have the right to put GFP in a genome it's a fight with the authorities.
If other groups want to collaborate with us in Belgium, we are open.
We are not making the show on TV, Nature or other, but yes, we are there.
Le jeudi 21 décembre 2017 23:20:55 UTC+1, Nathan McCorkle a écrit :I am surprised this has got any more attention, given the lack of response the EU biohackers have provided here on this mailing list. It gives the impression that EU biohackers are not interested in collaboration, and are making noise for some self-serving goals. This behavior only makes me wary of EU biohackers. Very sad.---Nathan
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