Re: [DIYbio] Re: Looking for partner or group for DIY TPE

Not exactly that way Gary. Plamsa is the the thing you want to eliminate, not RBC or platelets. in TPE, plasma is extracted and not returned. Also, the volume of plasma that is taken is replaced with saline solution. this and the return of the rbc allows for extracting significantly more plasma than with whole blood donation. and the goal is to lose up to 50% of plasma.

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 3:47:40 PM UTC-4 Gary Dale wrote:

I am no expert but seems to me (as a DIYBIO enthusiast) that TPE might not produce a complete a flush as a plain old blood donation.

MY understanding of TPE is that the plasma is separated out by centrifuge separating ALL heavy particles....blood cells and junk to be returned to the donor, thus putting all the particulate garbage back in to you... not actually ridding it from the body as in a blood donation  :-)

COMMENTS...IDEAS... CORRECTIONS...?

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 12:00:50 PM UTC-5, Frank Garcia wrote:

Can i summarize what we've all said here about testing this way:

1. we want to know if an intervention is effective

2. so we want to test rejuvenating changes in physiology

3. real benefit should be detectable and demonstrable with

                - increases in physical capacity

                - improvements in metabolic and other physiological end products and systemic biomarkers

                - changes in gene expression marked by epigenetic changes

4. thus to have a good sense of the effect an intervention has had we can't use just one type of test. We should employ multiple types of tests that include a selection from at least these three categories

                - exercise capacity, BMI, resting heart rate, blood pressure, sleep patterns, bone density, etc.

                - molecular marker of glucose, cholesterol, inflammation, GRF, CRP, fibrosis, etc

                - epigenetic markers such as methylation levels and other gene expression markers, mitotic competence

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 3:40:10 PM UTC-4 Raph N wrote:

https://nintil.com/epigenetic-clocks

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 19:58 Raphael Nicolle <rap...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes this is what I think. Hopefully commercial applications democratize soon enough :)

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 19:37 Frank Garcia <fgarc...@gmail.com> wrote:

sounds like the epigenetic tests may in fact reflect physiological status not just passage of time. i'm going to read up on this a bit. 

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 1:27:58 PM UTC-4 Raph N wrote:

• Epigenetic age test is an aggregation of hundreds of methylation sites in the genome, tracking change in expressions of many genes (involved in multiple pathways then).
• It correlates extremely well with chronological age (r>0.9).
• BUT it is amenable to some interventions which causes a lower epigenetic age, which also matches other biomarkers you cite such as fasting glucose, senescent cells, mitochondria output,... 
• In fact most* hallmarks of aging, as measured by other means, do correlate with this epigenetic age result as well, whether it matches chronological age or it is substantially lower (or higher for that matter).
• We can also reset the epigenome using a set of genes (the 4 Yamanaka factors), which gives a cell that is biological as young as we want (all the way to embryonic), with an epigenetic age of 0, and a fully functional embryonic phenotype. Or whatever the "clock" was stopped at.

I don't know what you conclude from these facts, but personally, I conclude that we have a serious contender to a very accurate age marker.

*I say most and not all because the rest haven't been formally studied, not because they do not correlate to epigenetic age as well. 

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 18:16, Frank Garcia <fgarc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually it isn't chronological age that we want to measure. we know how old someone is. we want to measure biological age. and that is contributed to by a huge number of variables. biological age means health. think of this as a myrid of axis or spectrums gradually change as we age, from the elasticity of your blood vessels, the levels of metaloproteinases you produce, the amount of senescent cell populations in your body, how much  advanced glycation end products you have accumulated, hormone levels such as growth hormone, androgens, and klotho, just to name a few out of thousands. moving the needle backwards on those axes makes you younger. But can any single test or type of test give an accurate reflection of that?

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 12:26:15 PM UTC-4 Raph N wrote:

That's a good point, what is rejuvenation? 

For me it's the actual "running back" of the body clock. To qualify as rejuvenation, an intervention should be able to postpone indefinitely aging if repeated sufficiently enough. So it's different than just doing exercise and be in better shape for example.

I have a problem with general biomarkers like insulin sensitivity etc,... The reason is basically this: https://michaellustgarten.com/2020/06/26/blood-test-analysis-in-a-100-year-old-subject/ If you look at the blood work of this subject, it would quite good even for a 40 year old. and yet, I'm certain if I see this subject, I will know right away he/she is definitely NOT a 40 years old. 

So we need a biomarker that is as closely related to chronological age as possible. And, for all its potential implementation issues, epigenetic age is so far the closest to the mark, with a correlation of 0.94 or even better for the latest peer-reviewed iterations. That's fracking good. And it's not just a "single" biomarker, it's a composite from hundreds of methylation sites across the genome, corresponding to hundreds of different gene expression changes.

Now the mirror test is a good one, but it will take a pretty good effect to show up with confidence, something I'm not sure TPE would do (or we definitely would have heard about it).

Anyway, multiple approaches are good, and I agree those fancy tests are expensive still :)

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:36, Frank Garcia <fgarc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I guess we need to define rejuvenation then. the biomarker tests in the experiment each measures one tiny piece of the physiological state which, depending on the direction in which the marker changed, indicates a physiological state that more closely resembles that of a younger organism. I'm not sure (maybe i'm wrong) there is a universally accepted definition of rejuvenation. and there certainly isn't any single market that proves rejuvenation. It's simply too complex for that to ever be the case. It's more like pick your basket of markers of aging and test them over a period of time and see which way they are heading.  I personally think any markers of rejuvenation has to include those that measure the physiological dirvers of age -related disease and deterioration such as insulin sensitivity, fibrotic markers, resting heart rate, muscle stem cells, mitochondrial markers, cholesterol trajectory, cardiac output efficiency, C-reactive protein, just to name a few out of a million.  In the study, muscle anabolism vs catabolism is in fact a good aging biomarker

On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 at 2:20:11 AM UTC-4 Raph N wrote:

The problem with the biomarkers used in the experiment is that they can't prove rejuvenation.  For example we know exercise improve lots of biomarkers, yet it does not rejuvenate you, or you could exercise your way to immortality. 

As far as we know epigenetic clock is the best marker of biological age. 

Raphael <rap...@gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 01:50 Frank Garcia <fgarc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know too much about the epigenetic tests however it might be useful for you to take a look at the biomarker tests that were used in the experiment that I posted which started this discussion. They did pretty rigorous testing of multiple systems and tissues to determine efficacy.

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