Science

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Buying a commercial maxiprep is like 100$, split it into 100 tubes, and we can share with any collaborators. Will have to read the contract if this is allowed.

The yeast kit isn't cheap but it comes with 5 reactions. Have you used that system before?

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I got two interested groups overseas, maybe 3. Overseas collaboration because GMO laws here don't allow indie research. Also have pKlac2 somewhere, we could have it amplified.

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No a provisional patent is not published. It can however be converted into a full application, which will eventually be published, even if not granted.
To the best of my understanding (willing to be corrected :) )

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2018, at 4:20 PM, John Griessen <john@industromatic.com> wrote:
>
>> On 05/29/2018 01:56 PM, Skyler Gordon wrote:
>> You can also file as many provisional patents as you would like, even if they are identical. It doesn't keep someone from filing a
>> similar patents, but again it saves your "time stamp" for another year with the USPTO
>
> Is there some benefit of filing an identical one? At the end of the first year, the first filing goes public, right?
>
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On 05/29/2018 01:56 PM, Skyler Gordon wrote:
> You can also file as many provisional patents as you would like, even if they are identical. It doesn't keep someone from filing a
> similar patents, but again it saves your "time stamp" for another year with the USPTO

Is there some benefit of filing an identical one? At the end of the first year, the first filing goes public, right?

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Just to make something exorbitantly clear: Provisional patents CAN NOT be seen by the public. 

Not only that, they can be edited. While the only get saved by the USPTO for 1 year, they are not publicized in ANY way. It is merely a time stamp for your idea that you can send into the patent office. I'm not sure how that would apply to international patents, but - 

if there is anyone who fears disclosing their idea by submitting a provisional patent, do not worry.

-SG

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 9:33 AM, Dakota Hamill <dkotes@gmail.com> wrote:

Patents are interesting.  It's a deal with the public to divulge your secret, and in return, get exclusive access to profit from it for ~30 years.  Early on in the ol DIYBio journey I was a huge fan of open source everything.  Can't people see that science and engineering are THE things that will elevate human-kind to a better standard of living?  Healthcare, entertainment, travel, etc, all stem from progression in the sciences.  So naturally, everything that makes that process faster should be free and open!!  I was naive.  

That said, I understand very clearly now why someone would want to patent something.  A utopian vision for humankind won't be realized in our lifetime, and dare I say, never will be.  When you or a team of people bust their asses, sweat, sacrifice money, time, and quality of life, shouldn't you "get" something in return for that?

If there is no incentive to do hard, risky work, I don't know who will do it.  Not many scientific aristocrats anymore.  After a few years in the drug-discovery field, I can say I don't want to "give" what we've been working on away for free, nor make it open source.  Simply being a private company means you have a fiduciary duty to your investors, and the company.

I'm rambling a bit now, didn't mean to turn this into a private vs open conversation.  If you're thinking of a patent read as many similar ones in the field as you can.  Write as much as you can in succinct sentences as you can, then pay a lawyer $5-$10k for a provisional (which is realistically what it will cost for a good one).  But, most of the provisional will be the "real" patent anyway, it's not like it's just simply a crappy first draft you get away with for $100.

Many patents don't make money, so there's that to keep in mind as well.  We had many patent lawyers say just keep it a trade-secret until you find a novel chemical scaffold (drug lead) then patent that.  Compositions of matter are a lot easier to get in the chemistry field because, you can't argue the 3D arrangement of atoms in a molecule.

I think a healthy mix of DIY with open sharing of information and articles coupled with entrepreneurial "capitalist" drive will make a few decent success stories.  We are far from one, but I enjoyed seeing how OpenPCR went from threads on here to a real company.  Likewise, I think Ethan Perlstein (who I believe used to post on here) did actually make a FULLY open company/non-profit that is doing highly risky drug discovery and from what I can see, is doing well.

There are always outliers that can make something work that everyone said couldn't.

Do what makes you happy first, then what makes you money, and if it's patentable, go for it.  That way when you strike it rich you can put money back into more science research or science startups!  

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 12:06 PM, John Griessen <john@industromatic.com> wrote:

On 05/29/2018 09:41 AM, Matt Lawes wrote:

It's hard for me to see how Indiebio / DIYbio is able to benefit from patents unless late stage development of a near market product. Trade secrets carry you through the ideation phases. Patent your product, not your idea, when you have a strategic partner with deep pockets.
Thoughts, comment?

Sounds right to me.  So far, all of the culture shock electroporator is free-published and based on patent expired designs
plus today's chips and micropython FOSS.  If it stumbles on something that is mainstream and needing patent, that will be obvious
only after lots of profit has already been made.  Maybe some add-ons to an electroporator will be kept as trade secrets, but only
if they stand alone somehow, since the docs to culture shock are licensed TAPR.

I see trademark as maybe useful and possibly design patent for a safety certified system in a case, fully assembled that educator
purchasing agents can buy...but there won't be anything patentable inside except maybe software that's nifty.

I think providing lab gear kits at low prices and later, fully assembled, safety tested to lab standard UL 61010,
with trademarks on the molded case will protect the case from knock-offs some, and allow niche market sales and income.
The core computer board for the culture shock electroporator can be used for a PCR, liquid handler, clean flow bench controller, centrifuge controller, spectrometer controller, etc. and that along with the HV board can do an electrophoresis supply with only
a different case and safety interlocks, gel tray for transillumination, etc.  The same core computer board could easily control
a scanner to read out the progress in the electrophoresis gel tray as it goes with a few parts as are used in optical disc drives.

Most of the above can be better protected by trademark than patent, and yet maybe some part of one could do a patent after it sells enough.

--
John

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On 05/29/2018 09:41 AM, Matt Lawes wrote:
> It's hard for me to see how Indiebio / DIYbio is able to benefit from patents unless late stage development of a near market product. Trade secrets carry you through the ideation phases. Patent your product, not your idea, when you have a strategic partner with deep pockets.
> Thoughts, comment?

Sounds right to me. So far, all of the culture shock electroporator is free-published and based on patent expired designs
plus today's chips and micropython FOSS. If it stumbles on something that is mainstream and needing patent, that will be obvious
only after lots of profit has already been made. Maybe some add-ons to an electroporator will be kept as trade secrets, but only
if they stand alone somehow, since the docs to culture shock are licensed TAPR.

I see trademark as maybe useful and possibly design patent for a safety certified system in a case, fully assembled that educator
purchasing agents can buy...but there won't be anything patentable inside except maybe software that's nifty.

I think providing lab gear kits at low prices and later, fully assembled, safety tested to lab standard UL 61010,
with trademarks on the molded case will protect the case from knock-offs some, and allow niche market sales and income.
The core computer board for the culture shock electroporator can be used for a PCR, liquid handler, clean flow bench controller,
centrifuge controller, spectrometer controller, etc. and that along with the HV board can do an electrophoresis supply with only
a different case and safety interlocks, gel tray for transillumination, etc. The same core computer board could easily control
a scanner to read out the progress in the electrophoresis gel tray as it goes with a few parts as are used in optical disc drives.

Most of the above can be better protected by trademark than patent, and yet maybe some part of one could do a patent after it
sells enough.

--
John

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The real issue with patents and patent drafting is the ability to defend the patent if infringed, in addition patents reveal methods to potential competitors. It's hard for me to see how Indiebio / DIYbio is able to benefit from patents unless late stage development of a near market product. Trade secrets carry you through the ideation phases. Patent your product, not your idea, when you have a strategic partner with deep pockets.
Thoughts, comment?
>Matt

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2018, at 10:27 AM, John Griessen <john@industromatic.com> wrote:
>
>> On 05/29/2018 02:12 AM, ashutosh choudhary wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am a patent attorney and can help you guys in patent search, writing and filing.
>
> OK. How about the question though? Will you offer any guidelines that will decrease the amount of billed patent searching time
> needed, or pointers to any boiler plate for types of bio patents?
>
> Sure, you're an attorney and can be hired, but that wasn't the question.
>
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On 05/29/2018 02:12 AM, ashutosh choudhary wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am a patent attorney and can help you guys in patent search, writing and filing.

OK. How about the question though? Will you offer any guidelines that will decrease the amount of billed patent searching time
needed, or pointers to any boiler plate for types of bio patents?

Sure, you're an attorney and can be hired, but that wasn't the question.

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Yeah I was aware of patent.google.com for quite some time now. I even referred librarians to it when they can't find patents on SCOPUS or something similar. However I never thought this would be DIYBio's go to tool or best advice on how to formulate the filler patent. USPTO is not as misleading as people can imagine it here either.

On my first attempt at the filler, I even set the guidelines for myself not to look at patents filed before mid 2013.

From what I understand, Your provisional patent exposes your idea to those who may go deeper or broader than what your claims aimed to establish for the actual patent. A good patent lawyer will let you know where you are messing up. That's why one needs a patent lawyer, to establish that no patent troll is sitting on your idea or that you haven't been scooped but with a another mechanism for the same product. To have a patent lawyer sit with your provisional patent draft will still cost you roughly the same as having one sit with a draft of the actual thing. I was given an estimate of ~-$50 from review of actual patent. Now I don't know if that's universal or if I should seek a second opinion. Do patent lawyers come around here?

There is nothing to stop you from filing your provisional patent at time of draft review or proof of principle study. That all depends on how frugal you choose to be with your intellectual property. Once you have uncovered your patent Via USPTO and $5k later, you are left volunrable to other nation's patent laws. NO?

I am sure I can google it but has anyone got good idea on how de novo pathways are patented in EU?

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This may be a shot in the dark but has anyone tried organic wires?

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Great video! I especially liked how you used chalk and slate to make all your images of phospholipids.

I must admit, your final product is a bit...crude for use in a biology laboratory. I don't speak French, but it sounded like you were explaining how to get more pure products with the use of a centrifuge and some more ethanol steps.

That being said, the feel of the video is half laboratory, half kitchen, which is great for DIY biologists! Bravo!

-SG

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