Re: [DIYbio] Continuing the Testosterone discussion

Hey Dakota and Frank et al.,

I got back my testosterone test results and it reads:

LOINC Code 2986-8

Test Testosterone, Total-Testosterone

Result 341 

Reference Range 264-916 ng/dL 

Abnormal Flag normal

Date Performed 3/26/2021

I am assuming with these results: 

• I do not need testosterone supplementation, and by extension
  
• I could not request / demand my PCP to fill a testosterone prescription to bump up levels, or do I?
  

LOINC Code 2986-8 

Test Testosterone, Total-Testosterone

Result 343 

Reference Range 264-916 ng/dL 

Abnormal Flag normal

Date Performed 3/25/2021

From my online searches, it appears there is no hard and fast rule about serum levels below which  supplementation may be allowed in the current US medical insurance / health care set-up. Guidelines vary from 300 -350 ng/dL as the low threshold. 

PatientFirst's 2986-8  test code goes even lower at 264 ng/dL! Not sure why...

I started to wonder whether this level changes across different racial / ethnic human male sub-populations. I then came across this paper - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327897/ - which shows how there is a difference in T between black and white male sub-populations.

So I wonder whether 264 is beyond or within range for my specific genetics!

My online search results that I scanned quickly:

https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20181005/should-men-with-symptoms-of-low-testosterone-but-without-hypogonadism-be-prescribed-testosterone-t

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255853/

https://www.ifm.org/news-insights/testosterone-supplement/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255853/

https://www.auanet.org/guidelines/testosterone-deficiency-guideline

Thanks!

I wish you all a fun Friday and a nice weekend.

Cheers,

Tom

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:51 AM Tom De Medts <tdmedts@gmail.com> wrote:

Super useful insights, thanks again, Dakota and Frank.

Cheers,

Tom

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 7:50 PM Dakota Hamill <dkotes@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah not many Wallmarts and Costco's around here with the 10cc but I
never tried.  Endo doing it electronic for probably this reason.  I
have no interest in utilizing more than I'm prescribed right now, it's
just that, this dose still hasn't relieved all issues.  I think
estradiol is the big issue at this point.  I guess continually
dropping adipose tissue is all I can do.  I want something more
androgenic though.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 7:07 PM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Btw in my experience CVS is the worst about filling testosterone prescriptions . They will take a 10 mL prescription and tell you that they have to give it to u in 1cc allotments because it's a controlled substance . they also charge more than any other pharmacy for that and everything else. You might want to consider getting a prescription but not using insurance to pay for it because it's really not that expensive especially if you use a coupon from good RX and then they cannot do anything but give you the full prescription since you are paying
>
> On January 14, 2021 6:44:01 PM Dakota Hamill <dkotes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd talk for days about hormones. That website is awesome, thanks
>> Frank.  I ended up finding a urologist via CVS who runs a men's clinic
>> on the side but I can't seem to get him to take over my insurance
>> covered TRT because...I can't even get an appointment with him.  It's
>> super frustrating being on TRT after  4 endos, and the one who finally
>> agreed to treat me doesn't believe in AI's or hCG.
>>
>> I'm a keep this thread rolling with the hijack if that's ok Frank lol.
>> I don't know why there isn't a crowd-sourced diagnostic platform to
>> help people (not give medical advice) but give "ideas" about what to
>> test or what may be a root cause.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/FpWVqUe
>>
>> That was my development on TRT.  I basically went from 0 facial hair
>> and body hair my entire life to a beard in 10 months, I consider that
>> I'm finishing puberty at 33.  Psychologically it's fucked me.  Science
>> the only thing that kept me alive.
>>
>> I was diagnosed with normosmic idiopathic hypogonadotropic
>> hypogonadism but I don't think that's the case.  I agree with
>> hypogonadism without a known cause...but I don't think it's Kallmann
>> syndrome at all.  I KNOW there is something wrong with my sympathetic
>> nervous system because I've been in fight-or-flight mode since 5 years
>> old, and nothing horrific happened.
>>
>> I've been pouring sweat since 5/6 years old after a Chicken Pox
>> infection.  My hands are dripping liquid as I write this...and there's
>> no reason for that.
>>
>> Always had thermal dysregulation, always felt hot, feet and hands cold
>> sweat.  Went from skinny as a rail as a track athlete to obese (with
>> that visceral fat), insulin resistant, metabolic syndrome,
>> dyslipidemia, heart issues, dermatographia, spider veins everywhere,
>> massive stretch marks.
>>
>> I've just felt like I have been high on adrenaline/cortisol my entire
>> life, and never able to relax, and it took a toll.  But...my cortisol
>> always comes back normal, as did my catecholamines.
>>
>> Sympathetic nervous system will shut down GI movement, and I also had
>> horrible GI bleeding and constipation, with joint aches (first
>> testosterone was 171ng/dL with a 7 total estradiol, both below range
>> and bottom of range).
>>
>> TRT my GI bleeding went away within 48 hours after 5 years of bleeding
>> (never did a colonoscopy), joint pain went away (finally had
>> estrogen), lipids normalized, insulin normalized, blood sugar
>> normalized.
>>
>> Only thing is I still have hyperhidrosis for no reason, and I feel
>> anxious all the time and had a few bouts of mania/psychosis on TRT.
>> Idk if my thyroid is fucked or my adrenals are fucked or I have a
>> tumor somewhere since 5 years old or what.
>>
>> Well maybe someone smarter than me in this can help.  I've just felt
>> tired...forever.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 5:09 PM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> To better answer the question that you actually asked, yes the testosterone that I've taken has always been intramuscular and by prescription although I have definitely taken my shot at getting testosterone without a prescription. I would not recommend it.
>>>
>>> there is a way to discover what doctors in your area are likely to prescribe testosterone to you . The Medicare payment database is made available through an organization called propublica . heres a link to the resource with testosterone selected. https://projects.propublica.org/checkup/drugs/8883 just sort results by state and look up your state and you'll see the top testosterone prescribing doctors.
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Tom De Medts" <tdmedts@gmail.com>
>>> To: "DIYbio" <diybio@googlegroups.com>
>>> Sent: 1/13/2021 3:23:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Re[2]: [DIYbio] How does one hire a bio lab technician for consulting?
>>>
>>> @ Dakota - Is your testosterone cypionate a prescription intra-muscular injection? And is it possible to procure this without a prescription?
>>>
>>> I have stubborn abdominal visceral fat that just will not go away to the point that exercising with that objective has led to multiple ligaments tears of the knees,
>>> at least 3 vertebral disc wear requiring future surgery, bad low-back with very limited flexibility, displacement of cervical vertebrae etc.
>>>
>>> I've heard that testosterone injections generally help with healing better and faster, is this true?
>>>
>>> Also, my testosterone levels were normal in my recent blood test, but I wonder whether its levels vary just as levels of most female hormones cycle up and down? Perhaps my androgen levels
>>> seem OK in a snapshot, but not if followed as a time course?  Like some days, in the morning especially, my voice will be deeper. And other times, my  voice will sound less deep, a little more squeaky. As a non-medical biologist, I would not venture to hypothesize if these are all related or not.  So I'm just thinking aloud and throwing out these observations.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions / advice is welcome...
>>> @ Frank and Dakota, this is not at all an effort to hijack your discussion. Sorry if this is going off on a slight tangent, happy to start a new thread if you wish...
>>>
>>> Thank you, in advance.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> TdM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 1:09 PM Dakota Hamill <dkotes@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems like you have a solid reason.  Apologies for projecting the
>>>> notion of vanity on your decisions.   Outside of anti-aging clinics or
>>>> treating rare diseases I'm not sure who offers treatments like this
>>>> with stem cells.  How you separate who is legit from a quack, no idea
>>>> either.  I'm not even sure what FDA approved stem cell treatments
>>>> there are.
>>>>
>>>> I can see the allure of anabolic steroids, I'm just on testosterone
>>>> cypionate now and it's reversed all sorts of problems I've had my
>>>> entire life overnight.
>>>>
>>>> Steroids wouldn't help with your bone loss and teeth problems?
>>>> They're designed to help fight osteoporosis.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:09 AM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks for the message and for being concerned. I am familiar with body
>>>>> dysmorphia more as an observer than a suffer. waaaaay back when I was
>>>>> young I did my stint with body building and steroids. I'm lucky that it
>>>>> did not turn into an addiction for me. I have friends who did not fare
>>>>> so well. One of them , a radiologist with whom I attended medical school
>>>>> died at the age of 31 from a massive heart attack resulting from
>>>>> cardiomegaly.
>>>>> Today I am the poster child for just about every damn age-related
>>>>> degenerative condition, I had three artificial intervertebral disks in
>>>>> my neck (before they were approved) due too herniated disks. The veins
>>>>> in my legs are basically useless forcing me to wear compression socks
>>>>> always. I got Halux Valgus (bunions) in both feet almost overnight, and
>>>>> while i have no cavities,  I do have chronic aggressive periodontal
>>>>> disease  with bone loss.  There's more but i'll hold off.   two of my
>>>>> conditions have been shown to respond and even resolve with stem cell
>>>>> therapy. With periodontitis, stem cell injections right on the receding
>>>>> edge of the bone in a matrix that keeps them there for a little while
>>>>> significantly stimulates not just bone but all the lost tissues to grow.
>>>>> That treatment is actually in practice but it costs a fortune and I'm
>>>>> about to loose 4 teeth if i don't act soon,.
>>>>> the other which i have mentioned is more of a problem with even less of
>>>>> a solution but in which stem cells have shown remarkable efficacy..
>>>>> Believe me i have no thing about wanting to inject stem cells for
>>>>> vanity. I would love to not have to go through all this trouble, So no
>>>>> danger of me doing this just for th hell of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> To your other point, I am absolutely into anti aging but in a true way,
>>>>> not just superficially. If i had the money i would have a protocol for
>>>>> myself that attacks some of the key drives and pay people to  force me
>>>>> to do things like intermittent fasting, being in bed by midnight, and
>>>>> exercising consistently. that right there is has more impact than just
>>>>> about any single drug. Then I'd buy myself a plasmapheresis machine, and
>>>>> get my hands on  4 or 5 of the molecules in this list:
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c79BsB8ooKkefmKLNRwTj9F1grkyrEN0_vwwuR3gFmA/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>
>>>>> so my metric for "youthfulness" would not be things like wrinkles but
>>>>> rather LDL/HDL ratio, GFR, C-reactive protein, HBAC, blood pressure,
>>>>> physical strength, cognitive performance,  etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> From: "Dakota Hamill" <dkotes@gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "diybio@googlegroups.com" <diybio@googlegroups.com>
>>>>> Sent: 1/12/2021 9:45:09 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DIYbio] How does one hire a bio lab technician for
>>>>> consulting?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you have an interesting project idea from your previous posts
>>>>>> and literature research, but it seems like you'll run into a number of
>>>>>> issues.  I hesitate to ask the "why" of why you want to re-inject
>>>>>> adipocyte stem-cells back into yourself because usually people that
>>>>>> want to do something like this have reasons no one else can talk them
>>>>>> out of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not judging though, because I have some serious pathological body
>>>>>> dysmorphia issues from a rare endocrine disorder, and I'm on
>>>>>> endocrinologist supervised treatment, but it never feels like enough.
>>>>>> I assume this is what it feels like to be anorexic or obsessed with
>>>>>> plastic surgery.  People see things about themselves no one else does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're dead set on it, you're probably going to have to do it
>>>>>> yourself.  That's going to make it difficult and expensive, and
>>>>>> dangerous.  You could die from an infection or immune response.  I
>>>>>> assume everyone has a "right" to self-treat themselves, but to what
>>>>>> extent another may be liable for manslaughter if it goes awry, I have
>>>>>> no idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's your end measurable of it "working"?  Never aging?  No
>>>>>> wrinkles? No cellulite? You're going to inject it all over your entire
>>>>>> body that's covered with fat tissue?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skip the headache/lawsuit/hospital bill of doing it yourself if you're
>>>>>> dead-set on it and talk to
>>>>>> https://www.bostonstemcell.com/stem-cell-therapy/fat-graft/  at least
>>>>>> you can sue a doctor if it goes awry.  $900-$6,000 and only one google
>>>>>> away!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck hope you find what you're looking for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 4:37 PM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you know I am attempting to produce an sample of viable fat stem cells suitable for personal medical use, on my own, and on a budget. At this point I think I understand the salient biological and medical issues but I am lacking hands on laboratory know-how.
>>>>>>> I looked into utilizing a community biospace but they are nonexistent close by or not interested in what I'm doing. Renting space in a biolab is too expensive.
>>>>>>> So I was thinking that a way to accomplish this might be to hire as a consultant an experienced lab technician who has done all of the parts of what I'm attempting to do.
>>>>>>> they would evaluate the protocol I'm gonna follow , tell me what to expect and about pitfalls, make sure i know all needed materials and equipment, and walk me through it. They could also tell me were I can use cheaper equipment alternatives .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So my question to this group: are biolab tech folks hired for this sort of thing? Does someone doing stem cell culturing at a biotech company ever moonlight to make extra money? If so is there a preferred source for such a consultant like a forum or classified?
>>>>>>>
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