Re: [DIYbio] Continuing the Testosterone discussion

What I've always been interested in from a "DIYBio/Chemistry"
standpoint is a compound that would increase testosterone production
endogenously. I've been reading for a few years now in regards to
this and have had conversations with the MD that tried to bring
Enclomiphene (Androxal) to market a few years ago. Sadly they failed
Phase 3 trials not because the data looked poor, but because they
chose the wrong end-point criteria. They appeared to not track
improvement of symptoms associated with secondary hypogonadism, and
instead focused on the preservation of spermatogenesis with concurrent
increases in total testosterone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clomifene has been used for decades as
a fertility drug and off-label by many endos to treat low testosterone
in men. It targets the estrogen receptor that controls negative
feedback on the pituitary for the production of gonadotropins (LH and
FSH) and subsequent increase in testosterone in the testes by
Luteinizing Hormone.

One can take Clomid for a boost in testosterone, but a majority of men
don't report feeling great on it because of the estrogenic side
effects. Some do however. I think endo's over-prescribe and go with
50mg every other day wherein 12.5mg every other day would give a boost
of testosterone without E2 side effects.

Drop the agonistic enantiomer (zuclomiphene) and stick with the
antagonist (enclomiphene) and you'd get a nice easy pill to take that
boosted testosterone endogenously, preserved spermatogenesis, and
potentially made hypogonadal men feel better without the need for
gels/injections for life.


On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 12:42 AM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> in this discussion about testosterone did we mention how to properly test one's testosterone? If not, let's start with the fact that testosterone levels fluctuate throughout the day - diurnal variation - with peak levels seen in the morning. Testing is supposed to be done close to 11 am.
> Second, test production is dynamic and can be measurably affected by various factors such as nutrition, alcohol, smoking, sleep, exercise, and sex. So it's important to get tested under typical condition when one of these factors isn't overtly present.
> Third, total serum testosterone does not equal usable testosterone which is why this test by itself may not be the most meaningful. Total serum testosterone consists of a) free testosterone (2%–3%), b) testosterone bound to a carrier molecule called sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) (45%), and c) testosterone bound to albumin (−50%). Testosterone bound to SHBG is not available and might as well not be there. Testosterone bound to albumin is available, and together with free testosterone is termed bioavailable testosterone. The most precise type of testosterone testing is usually not offered due to expense. But at least bioavailable test, shbg testosterone, and free testosterone are tests that anyone can get by asking. I would ask for these.
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Tom De Medts" <tdmedts@gmail.com>
> To: "DIYbio" <diybio@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: 3/26/2021 2:42:05 PM
> Subject: [DIYbio] Continuing the Testosterone discussion
>
> Hey Dakota and Frank et al.,
>
> I got back my testosterone test results and it reads:
> LOINC Code 2986-8
> Test Testosterone, Total-Testosterone
> Result 341
> Reference Range 264-916 ng/dL
> Abnormal Flag normal
> Date Performed 3/26/2021
>
> I am assuming with these results:
>
> I do not need testosterone supplementation, and by extension
> I could not request / demand my PCP to fill a testosterone prescription to bump up levels, or do I?
>
>
> LOINC Code 2986-8
> Test Testosterone, Total-Testosterone
> Result 343
> Reference Range 264-916 ng/dL
> Abnormal Flag normal
> Date Performed 3/25/2021
>
> From my online searches, it appears there is no hard and fast rule about serum levels below which supplementation may be allowed in the current US medical insurance / health care set-up. Guidelines vary from 300 -350 ng/dL as the low threshold.
>
> PatientFirst's 2986-8 test code goes even lower at 264 ng/dL! Not sure why...
>
> I started to wonder whether this level changes across different racial / ethnic human male sub-populations. I then came across this paper - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327897/ - which shows how there is a difference in T between black and white male sub-populations.
>
> So I wonder whether 264 is beyond or within range for my specific genetics!
>
> My online search results that I scanned quickly:
> https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20181005/should-men-with-symptoms-of-low-testosterone-but-without-hypogonadism-be-prescribed-testosterone-t
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255853/
> https://www.ifm.org/news-insights/testosterone-supplement/
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255853/
> https://www.auanet.org/guidelines/testosterone-deficiency-guideline
>
> Thanks!
>
> I wish you all a fun Friday and a nice weekend.
>
> Cheers,
> Tom
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:51 AM Tom De Medts <tdmedts@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Super useful insights, thanks again, Dakota and Frank.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Tom
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 7:50 PM Dakota Hamill <dkotes@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah not many Wallmarts and Costco's around here with the 10cc but I
>>> never tried. Endo doing it electronic for probably this reason. I
>>> have no interest in utilizing more than I'm prescribed right now, it's
>>> just that, this dose still hasn't relieved all issues. I think
>>> estradiol is the big issue at this point. I guess continually
>>> dropping adipose tissue is all I can do. I want something more
>>> androgenic though.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 7:07 PM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Btw in my experience CVS is the worst about filling testosterone prescriptions . They will take a 10 mL prescription and tell you that they have to give it to u in 1cc allotments because it's a controlled substance . they also charge more than any other pharmacy for that and everything else. You might want to consider getting a prescription but not using insurance to pay for it because it's really not that expensive especially if you use a coupon from good RX and then they cannot do anything but give you the full prescription since you are paying
>>> >
>>> > On January 14, 2021 6:44:01 PM Dakota Hamill <dkotes@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I'd talk for days about hormones. That website is awesome, thanks
>>> >> Frank. I ended up finding a urologist via CVS who runs a men's clinic
>>> >> on the side but I can't seem to get him to take over my insurance
>>> >> covered TRT because...I can't even get an appointment with him. It's
>>> >> super frustrating being on TRT after 4 endos, and the one who finally
>>> >> agreed to treat me doesn't believe in AI's or hCG.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm a keep this thread rolling with the hijack if that's ok Frank lol.
>>> >> I don't know why there isn't a crowd-sourced diagnostic platform to
>>> >> help people (not give medical advice) but give "ideas" about what to
>>> >> test or what may be a root cause.
>>> >>
>>> >> https://imgur.com/a/FpWVqUe
>>> >>
>>> >> That was my development on TRT. I basically went from 0 facial hair
>>> >> and body hair my entire life to a beard in 10 months, I consider that
>>> >> I'm finishing puberty at 33. Psychologically it's fucked me. Science
>>> >> the only thing that kept me alive.
>>> >>
>>> >> I was diagnosed with normosmic idiopathic hypogonadotropic
>>> >> hypogonadism but I don't think that's the case. I agree with
>>> >> hypogonadism without a known cause...but I don't think it's Kallmann
>>> >> syndrome at all. I KNOW there is something wrong with my sympathetic
>>> >> nervous system because I've been in fight-or-flight mode since 5 years
>>> >> old, and nothing horrific happened.
>>> >>
>>> >> I've been pouring sweat since 5/6 years old after a Chicken Pox
>>> >> infection. My hands are dripping liquid as I write this...and there's
>>> >> no reason for that.
>>> >>
>>> >> Always had thermal dysregulation, always felt hot, feet and hands cold
>>> >> sweat. Went from skinny as a rail as a track athlete to obese (with
>>> >> that visceral fat), insulin resistant, metabolic syndrome,
>>> >> dyslipidemia, heart issues, dermatographia, spider veins everywhere,
>>> >> massive stretch marks.
>>> >>
>>> >> I've just felt like I have been high on adrenaline/cortisol my entire
>>> >> life, and never able to relax, and it took a toll. But...my cortisol
>>> >> always comes back normal, as did my catecholamines.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sympathetic nervous system will shut down GI movement, and I also had
>>> >> horrible GI bleeding and constipation, with joint aches (first
>>> >> testosterone was 171ng/dL with a 7 total estradiol, both below range
>>> >> and bottom of range).
>>> >>
>>> >> TRT my GI bleeding went away within 48 hours after 5 years of bleeding
>>> >> (never did a colonoscopy), joint pain went away (finally had
>>> >> estrogen), lipids normalized, insulin normalized, blood sugar
>>> >> normalized.
>>> >>
>>> >> Only thing is I still have hyperhidrosis for no reason, and I feel
>>> >> anxious all the time and had a few bouts of mania/psychosis on TRT.
>>> >> Idk if my thyroid is fucked or my adrenals are fucked or I have a
>>> >> tumor somewhere since 5 years old or what.
>>> >>
>>> >> Well maybe someone smarter than me in this can help. I've just felt
>>> >> tired...forever.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 5:09 PM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> To better answer the question that you actually asked, yes the testosterone that I've taken has always been intramuscular and by prescription although I have definitely taken my shot at getting testosterone without a prescription. I would not recommend it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> there is a way to discover what doctors in your area are likely to prescribe testosterone to you . The Medicare payment database is made available through an organization called propublica . heres a link to the resource with testosterone selected. https://projects.propublica.org/checkup/drugs/8883 just sort results by state and look up your state and you'll see the top testosterone prescribing doctors.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> >>> From: "Tom De Medts" <tdmedts@gmail.com>
>>> >>> To: "DIYbio" <diybio@googlegroups.com>
>>> >>> Sent: 1/13/2021 3:23:43 PM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: Re[2]: [DIYbio] How does one hire a bio lab technician for consulting?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> @ Dakota - Is your testosterone cypionate a prescription intra-muscular injection? And is it possible to procure this without a prescription?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I have stubborn abdominal visceral fat that just will not go away to the point that exercising with that objective has led to multiple ligaments tears of the knees,
>>> >>> at least 3 vertebral disc wear requiring future surgery, bad low-back with very limited flexibility, displacement of cervical vertebrae etc.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I've heard that testosterone injections generally help with healing better and faster, is this true?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Also, my testosterone levels were normal in my recent blood test, but I wonder whether its levels vary just as levels of most female hormones cycle up and down? Perhaps my androgen levels
>>> >>> seem OK in a snapshot, but not if followed as a time course? Like some days, in the morning especially, my voice will be deeper. And other times, my voice will sound less deep, a little more squeaky. As a non-medical biologist, I would not venture to hypothesize if these are all related or not. So I'm just thinking aloud and throwing out these observations.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Any suggestions / advice is welcome...
>>> >>> @ Frank and Dakota, this is not at all an effort to hijack your discussion. Sorry if this is going off on a slight tangent, happy to start a new thread if you wish...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thank you, in advance.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Cheers,
>>> >>> TdM
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 1:09 PM Dakota Hamill <dkotes@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Seems like you have a solid reason. Apologies for projecting the
>>> >>>> notion of vanity on your decisions. Outside of anti-aging clinics or
>>> >>>> treating rare diseases I'm not sure who offers treatments like this
>>> >>>> with stem cells. How you separate who is legit from a quack, no idea
>>> >>>> either. I'm not even sure what FDA approved stem cell treatments
>>> >>>> there are.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I can see the allure of anabolic steroids, I'm just on testosterone
>>> >>>> cypionate now and it's reversed all sorts of problems I've had my
>>> >>>> entire life overnight.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Steroids wouldn't help with your bone loss and teeth problems?
>>> >>>> They're designed to help fight osteoporosis.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:09 AM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> thanks for the message and for being concerned. I am familiar with body
>>> >>>>> dysmorphia more as an observer than a suffer. waaaaay back when I was
>>> >>>>> young I did my stint with body building and steroids. I'm lucky that it
>>> >>>>> did not turn into an addiction for me. I have friends who did not fare
>>> >>>>> so well. One of them , a radiologist with whom I attended medical school
>>> >>>>> died at the age of 31 from a massive heart attack resulting from
>>> >>>>> cardiomegaly.
>>> >>>>> Today I am the poster child for just about every damn age-related
>>> >>>>> degenerative condition, I had three artificial intervertebral disks in
>>> >>>>> my neck (before they were approved) due too herniated disks. The veins
>>> >>>>> in my legs are basically useless forcing me to wear compression socks
>>> >>>>> always. I got Halux Valgus (bunions) in both feet almost overnight, and
>>> >>>>> while i have no cavities, I do have chronic aggressive periodontal
>>> >>>>> disease with bone loss. There's more but i'll hold off. two of my
>>> >>>>> conditions have been shown to respond and even resolve with stem cell
>>> >>>>> therapy. With periodontitis, stem cell injections right on the receding
>>> >>>>> edge of the bone in a matrix that keeps them there for a little while
>>> >>>>> significantly stimulates not just bone but all the lost tissues to grow.
>>> >>>>> That treatment is actually in practice but it costs a fortune and I'm
>>> >>>>> about to loose 4 teeth if i don't act soon,.
>>> >>>>> the other which i have mentioned is more of a problem with even less of
>>> >>>>> a solution but in which stem cells have shown remarkable efficacy..
>>> >>>>> Believe me i have no thing about wanting to inject stem cells for
>>> >>>>> vanity. I would love to not have to go through all this trouble, So no
>>> >>>>> danger of me doing this just for th hell of it.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> To your other point, I am absolutely into anti aging but in a true way,
>>> >>>>> not just superficially. If i had the money i would have a protocol for
>>> >>>>> myself that attacks some of the key drives and pay people to force me
>>> >>>>> to do things like intermittent fasting, being in bed by midnight, and
>>> >>>>> exercising consistently. that right there is has more impact than just
>>> >>>>> about any single drug. Then I'd buy myself a plasmapheresis machine, and
>>> >>>>> get my hands on 4 or 5 of the molecules in this list:
>>> >>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c79BsB8ooKkefmKLNRwTj9F1grkyrEN0_vwwuR3gFmA/edit?usp=sharing
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> so my metric for "youthfulness" would not be things like wrinkles but
>>> >>>>> rather LDL/HDL ratio, GFR, C-reactive protein, HBAC, blood pressure,
>>> >>>>> physical strength, cognitive performance, etc.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> >>>>> From: "Dakota Hamill" <dkotes@gmail.com>
>>> >>>>> To: "diybio@googlegroups.com" <diybio@googlegroups.com>
>>> >>>>> Sent: 1/12/2021 9:45:09 PM
>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [DIYbio] How does one hire a bio lab technician for
>>> >>>>> consulting?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I think you have an interesting project idea from your previous posts
>>> >>>>>> and literature research, but it seems like you'll run into a number of
>>> >>>>>> issues. I hesitate to ask the "why" of why you want to re-inject
>>> >>>>>> adipocyte stem-cells back into yourself because usually people that
>>> >>>>>> want to do something like this have reasons no one else can talk them
>>> >>>>>> out of.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Not judging though, because I have some serious pathological body
>>> >>>>>> dysmorphia issues from a rare endocrine disorder, and I'm on
>>> >>>>>> endocrinologist supervised treatment, but it never feels like enough.
>>> >>>>>> I assume this is what it feels like to be anorexic or obsessed with
>>> >>>>>> plastic surgery. People see things about themselves no one else does.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> If you're dead set on it, you're probably going to have to do it
>>> >>>>>> yourself. That's going to make it difficult and expensive, and
>>> >>>>>> dangerous. You could die from an infection or immune response. I
>>> >>>>>> assume everyone has a "right" to self-treat themselves, but to what
>>> >>>>>> extent another may be liable for manslaughter if it goes awry, I have
>>> >>>>>> no idea.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> What's your end measurable of it "working"? Never aging? No
>>> >>>>>> wrinkles? No cellulite? You're going to inject it all over your entire
>>> >>>>>> body that's covered with fat tissue?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Skip the headache/lawsuit/hospital bill of doing it yourself if you're
>>> >>>>>> dead-set on it and talk to
>>> >>>>>> https://www.bostonstemcell.com/stem-cell-therapy/fat-graft/ at least
>>> >>>>>> you can sue a doctor if it goes awry. $900-$6,000 and only one google
>>> >>>>>> away!
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Good luck hope you find what you're looking for.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 4:37 PM Frank <fgarcia0007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> As you know I am attempting to produce an sample of viable fat stem cells suitable for personal medical use, on my own, and on a budget. At this point I think I understand the salient biological and medical issues but I am lacking hands on laboratory know-how.
>>> >>>>>>> I looked into utilizing a community biospace but they are nonexistent close by or not interested in what I'm doing. Renting space in a biolab is too expensive.
>>> >>>>>>> So I was thinking that a way to accomplish this might be to hire as a consultant an experienced lab technician who has done all of the parts of what I'm attempting to do.
>>> >>>>>>> they would evaluate the protocol I'm gonna follow , tell me what to expect and about pitfalls, make sure i know all needed materials and equipment, and walk me through it. They could also tell me were I can use cheaper equipment alternatives .
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> So my question to this group: are biolab tech folks hired for this sort of thing? Does someone doing stem cell culturing at a biotech company ever moonlight to make extra money? If so is there a preferred source for such a consultant like a forum or classified?
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> --
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>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
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>>> >>>
>>> >>>
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