On 3 June 2014 14:56, David Murphy <murphy.david@gmail.com> wrote:
>"Perhaps a better analogy would be this: you encounter a woman on the street who is running and screaming"unfortunatly, again, that's a loaded one. In a long running dispute there's little cost in waiting for the decision of 3rd party mediation while in this example it would be a matter of life and death over the course of seconds and also, nobody I know and trust personally has waded in with confirmation or denial on either side.
Well, there is no direct analogy other than those quotes I gave you. The thing is that it does suck to have the reaction so often feel like "I don't believe you". I can tell you that although I can definitely see why that would happen in some people's consciousnesses it does just wear on a person to hear it over and over again and to have to be constantly paddling up waterfalls.
I have to say that I am unsure of this whole mediation thing. I have heard and experienced lots of mixed things with mediators. I'm open to it, but not putting my faith in it as though it is the final arbiter. Hopefully it will be, though.
Your friend from the UN is wrong on one point: open "communities" are awful at mediating disputes.
Sorry, it was me telling her that, not the other way around. I hope I wrote that correctly.
For a long list of reasons. Mainly that most people are not willing to spend the hour to both wade through all the material and also listen to both sides.
Yes This has been a rather massive problem. To put it mildly. I have all of this evidence and I can tell you that the whole shebang sit down with showing some, but not all and maybe not even "many" of my documents takes forever. Also, just trying to educate people on what harassment and bullying are is very hard. The Labitat guys really thought that sexual harassment meant just groping at the start of this. Hell, even I had a confusing few days after bringing it up to the Kopenlab group thinking "these aren't just "personal" issues like they say, are they?". People are not educated, they don't like being told they are not, the do not want to read the evidence. Those who do sit down with me and then the other side (or vice versa), often do land with me though.
This really sucks for me, frankly. I didn't really, er, have experience with actually being in such a community before and so I idealized the notion of flat, open governance. I thought that in such a system people would take the time and effort to educate themselves and get engaged as that is what I would do. Look, this whole thing just shows everyone one thing definitively: Jen is incredibly naive. Ha. I am not proud of that, but that is the truth I am finding out.
It's like relying on a mob for justice. you either get people making snap decisions and pediatricians getting their houses burned out or nothing much happening.
Yes, this is what is happening. Literally. I literally got mobbed on Thursday the 22nd. It was one of the most harrowing things that have ever happened to me and I have been in the south of Tchad during active rebel fighting visiting hospitals. I thought biohackign was supposed to be the alternative to the established structures. We should really try to figure out how to deal with this internally without having to reach out to established, paid 3rd parties. We need a kind of HR for the movement. I still hope that it can figure out some way to deal with this without having to cry uncle and go to court. If we can figure out how to do it in a humane way, we can evolve. We all agree that it is good that we can do biology without the auspices of the formal structures and set up a counter culture to that apparatus. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe we can do that for this kind of thing too.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAP0RkBCPasVZ4YJmziYLbEPcDUfr7pCCnyD5TNYAmim8Rs47RQ%40mail.gmail.com.--On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Meredith L. Patterson <clonearmy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:45 PM, David Murphy <murphy.david@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know you, I don't know any of the people involved in the case and I'm inclined to believe you when you say people were dicks to you but it's not unreasonable for other people, before shunning those involved, to await the verdict of some impartial 3rd party who have all the facts and who've heard the other sides version as well.I haven't said anything until now for this exact reason: I don't know, haven't met, and until this thread had not even *heard* of any of the people or labs involved in this situation. Granted I live in a hole with a rock on top of it, but that does not obligate me to act, or even make a decision, without reasoning through the information available to me.It is certainly the case that nobody should be made subject to harassment or unwanted attention, from anybody. I haven't heard any disagreement with that point.It is certainly the case that harassment should have consequences. I don't think anyone particularly objects to that notion either.It is also the case that the people Jen accuses have not presented any substantive response to her quite detailed accounts of their actions, and that has a bad smell to it.But "end harassment in hacking" is one of those open-ended aspirations like "end terrorism," and it also smells a bit off that Jen has so far sidestepped all the questions people have asked about what specific consequences would make amends for the harassment she experienced. Jen also appeals to the authority of Julie Horvath and Liz Henry. Liz Henry is one of the founding members of the Ada Initiative, an organization whose primary activity is to whip up social media frenzies about sexism in technology. Their website at one point mentioned that they provided "consulting services" to companies that were having "diversity issues"; this language has disappeared from the site, probably because it made "corporate blackmail as a business model" just a little too obvious. (Now they just provide workshops and trainings like any other diversity org, but they remain a huge mover and shaker in the 24-hour outrage cycle that lampreys like BuzzFeed and DailyDot feed off for the advertising clicks.)It's probably too late for this situation to escape the attention of the 24-hour outrage cycle. Not much we can do about that; try not to get too distracted by it, folks. Jen does still have a problem.So, Jen, can you answer that question for us? These "culture wars" drag on because the discourse always stays at this high level of abstraction. But we're scientists. We observe what happens in nature and induce patterns from it. Then the engineers step in and figure out how to scale it. What would solve *your* problem? We all know that there's a *general* problem. Let's find out what solving individual cases of it looks like, one at a time, and find the patterns in those solutions, because that's where we're going to find the solution to the general problem.--mlp--To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAPxGCxddonTjFLuzbU4Oq31fmnQkZUadGEiBxt1%3DMoScMraKuA%40mail.gmail.com.
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