Please stop.

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Jen Kotila <jen.kotila01@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear David, 

I have thought a lot about the criticism of my tone and my methods. The "you catch more flies with honey" line is another common silencing tactic relating to tone. 

My tone is that of someone who has faced abuse for many months. My methods are those of a despearte victim of oppression seeking justice by any means necessary. This quote from Malcolm X resonates with me.

"Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society."

 I can tell you that I never act like this UNLESS I am tortured emotionally. Which is not often and NEVER before in any job or organization I have been a part of. NEVER. I worked at a large and very well respected NGO for a decade. When I left that job, the whole staff from the janitors to the director and EVERYONE in between came to my going away party to wish me farewell. I have many letters from colleagues saying they'd miss me. Ditto for the other two organizations I am a part of here in Copenhagen: Science and Cocktails and a friend's business, which I helped him and two other guys and a bunch of their friends physically build and is now the top ranked of its category in the city. I still have a key there and they thanked me profusely for my help. In fact, I put in more hours than anyone else there in January and Feburary when it was new. 

I live to help my friends. I am financially independent and have no profit motive. I only want to help. This threatened Malthe and Emil who wanted the spotlight to themselves and this is one small part, I think of why they harassed me. I actually HATE this, I don't like the spotlight. I prefer being in a supporting role. 

Read my couchsurfing profile to see who I am . 

But there is no way in good conscience I can be silent on this matter when it is so deeply systemic  in this movement that could be revolutionary. If this movement keeps ok'ing the harassment and discrimination of women, it WILL die. Openness can only become functional via equality. I am no MLK, I am Malcolm FUCKING X. I scare the master in his nice manor home because I am free and beholden to anyone for any damn thing. I demand to be regonized as a human and to be given the respect due to me, due to ALL of us, regardless of gender, race, sex, creed, whatever. Until that happens, nothing in this world will function properly. I promise you that. 

Another quote from X: 

"Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change."

― Malcolm X

Change, it is a comin'. It's been needed for a long time. I might not win this public fight, I might terrify too many closelt and open misogynists in this process. I do not care one whit. 

I close with this:

The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins. In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing – for the sheer fun and joy of it – to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose. You mustn't feel like a martyr. You've got to enjoy it.

–I.F. Stone

I enjoy it if it lets someone else win, even if I do not. We need this change. We need to stop pretending it doesn't happen and then defending those who perpetrate it. 

Jen

On 22 June 2014 05:51, Bob Hartford <zimbobweigh27@gmail.com> wrote:

Jen,

I'm sorry to say this like this but, if this is how you act on a regular basis, I can see why people give you a hard time. Regardless of gender...

I'm not looking for a fight. I'm just advising. This is not how you get people on your side.

Zim

I am way too busy with ESOF right now to deal with this thread but the response I sent to Frank was not intended to be sent to him personally, but rather to the new list "Space" which is for discussing such matters. The way that list is set up, if you just hit reply it replies to the individual, not the whole list (which is how Labitat Discuss works). 

I sent Frank an email stating that I have felt harassed by him ever since I came forward as every time I post something, he leaps all over me and says horrible things. See:

 http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/space/2014-June/000012.html

There are more, too. I was polite in my responses and asked him if he wanted to sit down and talk with me about the matter and he refused. No one who has sat down with me thinks I am lying. No one who's talked with me thinks I am. Frank is well known to have some issues in lab and everyone told me to just leave him be. In fact, some who said this said that they bully him and he doesn't even notice it. The implication being that he is perhaps not the most socially savvy among us. (It also shows just how fucked up Labitat's culture is, however, as the guys who told me that were laughing about it.) 

I feel very strongly that people who refuse to discuss this matter generally have preconceived notions and it wouldn't matter in any case if they did sit and talk. I feel that way about Cathal and Josiah here, frankly. Cathal is more sophisticated but Josiah could be Frank's clone. 

Also, it is very, very. VERY common for misogynists to try to silence victims of harassment by using tactics such as 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/You%27re_the_bully

and 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Harming_the_community

This is what Frank has done to me from the start, without listening to me at all and calling me horrible names and attacking me at every turn on the mailing list. 

He wrote this:



I honestly don't care about you and your bullshit story's. Go get some professional help, stop bordering people! AND STOP WASTING MY TIME AND DON'T WRITE ME AGAIN! CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?!! Some of us have real jobs and don't have time for your harassment.

I wrote this:





Jen Kotila <jen.kotila01@gmail.com>

20 Jun (2 days ago)







to Frank



I will very gladly cease and desist all further interaction with you and hereby formally request that you do the same to me. I would like you to stop contacting me and to stop interacting with me. For the record, I consider your behavior to be quite harassing but since I have a very thick skin I am letting it go. 

Mvh, 

After this new bout of cyberharassment, all of which has been 100% instigated by him (I only ever send responses to him, I NEVER initiate email contact and that is a stone cold fact) and mine are all relatively nice in tone while his are nasty and aggressive) I asked told the board I had asked him to cease and desist contact with me and that he ignored that (he mailed me once again after I sent that mail-- which I ignored) 

It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright fucked up. Labitat has about 50 active members. I am the one of two active women. The other one is in a committed relationship with a board member. You do the math. 

Sexual harassment is very common in hackerspaces. It's an epidemic, in fact. http://missionlocal.org/2013/12/combating-sexual-harassment-in-tech/ It's also common for a victim to be mobbed and my supporters warned me that things like Frank's response might happen. 

It needs to stop or this DIY open knowledge movement will fail. 

This experiment here on DIYbio was a good run to run and I think we all learned a lot. I think that it is not the right forum for specifics and if the other side refrains from posting theirs, I will put mine here: opendiscrimination.org from now on. DIYbio ended up being a lot like Discuss, the loud macho agressive people shouting everyone else down. opendiscrimination.org would provide a safe space for victims to speak out. 

I started that organization in response to this lack in hacking's culture. We have no HR. When a victim of harassment comes forward within a community filled with misogynists like Frank and gets mobbed (there are many good people down there who believe me but are just less vocal), they have to have somewhere else to turn for justice BEFORE heading for court. Also the whole "innocent until proven guilty" is a silencing tactic too: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_until_proven_guilty

not all harmful actions actually being illegal in the first place (for example, many jurisdictions only make sexual harassment an offense in the workplace, if then)the considerable time, energy and monetary burden assumed by victims who report harmful acts, in interacting with the police, lawyers and the judicial systemevidence of considerable underreporting of harm to oppressed groups, lack of prosecution when reported, and low rates of conviction when triedthe nation-state is a very powerful entity, typically having effectively unlimited financial resources and reserving the right to commit violence to itself, against which almost any individual person has a considerable disadvantage. It makes sense to hold such an entity to extremely strict burden of proof in exercising its power, relative to, say, a geek conference or meetup!the fact that in fact it may even benefit the perpetrator to face social and/or professional censure, relative to punishment by the state

In practice, insisting that the geek community only censure those who have been found guilty of harm in a court of law limits censure to a very very small number of people relative to the number of harassers and abusers within it (and within society in general).

This refrain of "go to court, go to court, go to court" is ludicrous and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the open knowledge ethos. Before I proceed, again, I have consulted with four different lawyers and they think that my case is very strong and I can countersue for libel and slander as well as charge for harassment and discrimination if I want to. 

I want to work it out in any way other than that if possible for many reasons, but prime among them are my convictions that open knowledge has the possiblity to change the world for the infinite better if it is managed properly. Open knowledge should be the alternative to the traditional structures. IF it is, we should try to solve conflicts like this as internally as possible and there should be another level to appeal to when things go really wrong in an open knowledge organization.  

DIYbio.org is not that forum, as has become clear from running this experiment. Neither was Discuss, Space didn't work either (we created that in Labitat to provide safer forum to talk about this on, but Frank and co. stormed in and made it a shouting match again). What happened here is what happened at home-- some support up front who got scared off when conflict was started by misogynists who start doubting and attacking. Yep. Same pattern. Not so heartening for open knowledge, but maybe just an artifact of the anonymity of mailing lists and the fact that the more functional and socially skilled someone is the more likely they are to believe me and the less likely they are to spend a lot of time engaging in flame wars on internet forums. They have lives outside of this mess. 

 opendiscrimination.org could be an alternative to help prevent the victim from further attacks in the naming and shaming process. More attacks aren't remotely helpful when someone is hurt and suffering and everyone who's done that ought to be damned ashamed of himself if he has any decency whatsoever. Hell, even if, nah-- ESPECIALLY -if- I were actually a "crazy" person you should be kind or try to. The lack of empathy in some humans is a terrifying thing and it does make me wonder if a truly open world is possible as how does THAT systemic problem get fixed?

Well, now I am getting too philosophical. 

I have no time for further input into this discussion here. I will learn from how my supporters ran away and didn't fight the aggressive misogynistic trolls here or on Discuss and thus only post about this in safe spaces from now on UNLESS they post in public and then I will respond. 

Then again, I did get some wonderful support here and some people went WAY out of their way to send incredibly thoughtful letters, to write to IF and Science in the City, to give encouragement, etc and that was great! I am sorry if I didn't thank some of you individually, I have been very busy and overwhelmed lately. I want to make time to do that soon, and I hope to find it after ESOF. I apologize for the delay.  

This whole movement is one big experiment. It's one of the most profound and the most risky that humanity has ever run. If we allow it to get overrun with the wrong elements in this early stage it will fail. If it is normal that women get harassed and then mobbed to the point where they leave the movement or feel compelled to start woman only hackerspaces, it will fail. If we can only openly discuss SOME things relating to it openly but not others, it will fail. If it cannot recognize its flaws and work to better them, it will fail. 

I don't want to see it fail. I want to see it grow and thrive. We need to fix this horrifying systemic problem in some way. I invite anyone who is interested in helping with that to get engaged and hack the culture by working with us at opendiscriminaton.org , not just by hacking biology. 

Regards,

Jen

I am way too busy with ESOF right now to deal with this thread but the response I sent to Frank was not intended to be sent to him personally, but rather to the new list "Space" which is for discussing such matters. The way that list is set up, if you just hit reply it replies to the individual, not the whole list (which is how Labitat Discuss works). 

I sent Frank an email stating that I have felt harassed by him ever since I came forward as every time I post something, he leaps all over me and says horrible things. See:

 http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/discuss/2014-May/013563.html

http://lists.labitat.dk/pipermail/space/2014-June/000012.html

There are more, too. I was polite in my responses and asked him if he wanted to sit down and talk with me about the matter and he refused. No one who has sat down with me thinks I am lying. No one who's talked with me thinks I am. Frank is well known to have some issues in lab and everyone told me to just leave him be. In fact, some who said this said that they bully him and he doesn't even notice it. The implication being that he is perhaps not the most socially savvy among us. (It also shows just how fucked up Labitat's culture is, however, as the guys who told me that were laughing about it.) 

I feel very strongly that people who refuse to discuss this matter generally have preconceived notions and it wouldn't matter in any case if they did sit and talk. I feel that way about Cathal and Josiah here, frankly. Cathal is more sophisticated but Josiah could be Frank's clone. 

Also, it is very, very. VERY common for misogynists to try to silence victims of harassment by using tactics such as 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/You%27re_the_bully

and 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Harming_the_community

This is what Frank has done to me from the start, without listening to me at all and calling me horrible names and attacking me at every turn on the mailing list. 

He wrote this:

I honestly don't care about you and your bullshit story's. Go get some professional help, stop bordering people! AND STOP WASTING MY TIME AND DON'T WRITE ME AGAIN! CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?!! Some of us have real jobs and don't have time for your harassment.

I wrote this:

Jen Kotila <jen.kotila01@gmail.com>	20 Jun (2 days ago)
to Frank

I will very gladly cease and desist all further interaction with you and hereby formally request that you do the same to me. I would like you to stop contacting me and to stop interacting with me. For the record, I consider your behavior to be quite harassing but since I have a very thick skin I am letting it go. 

Mvh, 

After this new bout of cyberharassment, all of which has been 100% instigated by him (I only ever send responses to him, I NEVER initiate email contact and that is a stone cold fact) and mine are all relatively nice in tone while his are nasty and aggressive) I asked told the board I had asked him to cease and desist contact with me and that he ignored that (he mailed me once again after I sent that mail-- which I ignored) 

It would be hilarious if it weren't so downright fucked up. Labitat has about 50 active members. I am the one of two active women. The other one is in a committed relationship with a board member. You do the math. 

Sexual harassment is very common in hackerspaces. It's an epidemic, in fact. http://missionlocal.org/2013/12/combating-sexual-harassment-in-tech/ It's also common for a victim to be mobbed and my supporters warned me that things like Frank's response might happen. 

It needs to stop or this DIY open knowledge movement will fail. 

This experiment here on DIYbio was a good run to run and I think we all learned a lot. I think that it is not the right forum for specifics and if the other side refrains from posting theirs, I will put mine here: opendiscrimination.org from now on. DIYbio ended up being a lot like Discuss, the loud macho agressive people shouting everyone else down. opendiscrimination.org would provide a safe space for victims to speak out. 

I started that organization in response to this lack in hacking's culture. We have no HR. When a victim of harassment comes forward within a community filled with misogynists like Frank and gets mobbed (there are many good people down there who believe me but are just less vocal), they have to have somewhere else to turn for justice BEFORE heading for court. Also the whole "innocent until proven guilty" is a silencing tactic too: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_until_proven_guilty

• not all harmful actions actually being illegal in the first place (for example, many jurisdictions only make sexual harassment an offense in the workplace, if then)
• the considerable time, energy and monetary burden assumed by victims who report harmful acts, in interacting with the police, lawyers and the judicial system
• evidence of considerable underreporting of harm to oppressed groups, lack of prosecution when reported, and low rates of conviction when tried
• the nation-state is a very powerful entity, typically having effectively unlimited financial resources and reserving the right to commit violence to itself, against which almost any individual person has a considerable disadvantage. It makes sense to hold such an entity to extremely strict burden of proof in exercising its power, relative to, say, a geek conference or meetup!
• the fact that in fact it may even benefit the perpetrator to face social and/or professional censure, relative to punishment by the state

In practice, insisting that the geek community only censure those who have been found guilty of harm in a court of law limits censure to a very very small number of people relative to the number of harassers and abusers within it (and within society in general).

This refrain of "go to court, go to court, go to court" is ludicrous and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the open knowledge ethos. Before I proceed, again, I have consulted with four different lawyers and they think that my case is very strong and I can countersue for libel and slander as well as charge for harassment and discrimination if I want to. 

I want to work it out in any way other than that if possible for many reasons, but prime among them are my convictions that open knowledge has the possiblity to change the world for the infinite better if it is managed properly. Open knowledge should be the alternative to the traditional structures. IF it is, we should try to solve conflicts like this as internally as possible and there should be another level to appeal to when things go really wrong in an open knowledge organization.  

DIYbio.org is not that forum, as has become clear from running this experiment. Neither was Discuss, Space didn't work either (we created that in Labitat to provide safer forum to talk about this on, but Frank and co. stormed in and made it a shouting match again). What happened here is what happened at home-- some support up front who got scared off when conflict was started by misogynists who start doubting and attacking. Yep. Same pattern. Not so heartening for open knowledge, but maybe just an artifact of the anonymity of mailing lists and the fact that the more functional and socially skilled someone is the more likely they are to believe me and the less likely they are to spend a lot of time engaging in flame wars on internet forums. They have lives outside of this mess. 

 opendiscrimination.org could be an alternative to help prevent the victim from further attacks in the naming and shaming process. More attacks aren't remotely helpful when someone is hurt and suffering and everyone who's done that ought to be damned ashamed of himself if he has any decency whatsoever. Hell, even if, nah-- ESPECIALLY -if- I were actually a "crazy" person you should be kind or try to. The lack of empathy in some humans is a terrifying thing and it does make me wonder if a truly open world is possible as how does THAT systemic problem get fixed?

Well, now I am getting too philosophical. 

I have no time for further input into this discussion here. I will learn from how my supporters ran away and didn't fight the aggressive misogynistic trolls here or on Discuss and thus only post about this in safe spaces from now on UNLESS they post in public and then I will respond. 

Then again, I did get some wonderful support here and some people went WAY out of their way to send incredibly thoughtful letters, to write to IF and Science in the City, to give encouragement, etc and that was great! I am sorry if I didn't thank some of you individually, I have been very busy and overwhelmed lately. I want to make time to do that soon, and I hope to find it after ESOF. I apologize for the delay.  

This whole movement is one big experiment. It's one of the most profound and the most risky that humanity has ever run. If we allow it to get overrun with the wrong elements in this early stage it will fail. If it is normal that women get harassed and then mobbed to the point where they leave the movement or feel compelled to start woman only hackerspaces, it will fail. If we can only openly discuss SOME things relating to it openly but not others, it will fail. If it cannot recognize its flaws and work to better them, it will fail. 

I don't want to see it fail. I want to see it grow and thrive. We need to fix this horrifying systemic problem in some way. I invite anyone who is interested in helping with that to get engaged and hack the culture by working with us at opendiscriminaton.org , not just by hacking biology. 

Regards,

Jen

On 22 June 2014 01:29, John Griessen <john@industromatic.com> wrote:

On 06/20/2014 06:26 PM, Frank Pedersen wrote:

This morning at work I received an long personal mail from her with endless twisted nonsense, I got angry and replied with large
letters that she should seek professional help and never contact me again.

Without being able to understand the whole thing going on, I would stop communicating with her,
or maybe land in jail.  Too not respond is a reasonable path to take when you cannot understand
what someone wants, and don't know anything that would definitely help them.

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