Re: [DIYbio] Re: Electronic requirements for redesign of Arduino PCR thermal cycler

On 3/24/15 12:50 PM, Cathal Garvey wrote:
> > Biology analogy: we can also pipette using straws, and recommend that
> > everyone do this (esp years ago when pipettes were expensive), but
> > why recommend this today? Buy a real pipette, the real tool.
>
> To borrow that analogy, if straws were as accurate and easier to use
> for 99% of use cases than micropippettes, you can be damned sure we'd
> recommend straws over micropippettes. The fact that straws are,
> actually, terrible is the reason we recommend serious people buy
> (cheaper, off-brand) micropippettes.

This is exactly the point I implied, yes. Now fill in the blank, "The
fact that [Arduino's] are, actually, terrible is the reason we recommend
serious people buy (cheaper, off-brand) [what they determine they need
after doing a little homework]"

I'm not sure where this perception of "steep learning curve" comes from
(unless it is another symptom of the new social-media-ADHD-generation
"if I can't google the answer in 10 seconds then forget it"). Doing a
couple days of homework first and a few more days of up front design
time is not a steep learning curve. Learning to solder is not a steep
learning curve and is also a valuable life skill (not "distraction").
Using a real programming IDE as opposed to a
pointy-clicky-for-humanity-majors is not a steep learning curve. Anyone
on this list is aiming for harder science than the equivalent of mixing
vinegar and baking soda in a balloon. Now if you didn't personally
know where to look (newbie design communities alive & thriving), that is
a different and perhaps difficult past occurrence for you which made for
a steeper curve than necessary, though it is not valid as a
recommendation for newcomers today. Also to mention that these skills
learned will boost employment opportunities and perhaps salary which
adds up significantly over a long term. It is not like recommending
some obscure art of basket weaving, this is really, really valuable
stuff, even literally $$$.

Take a second to look at your perspective, reflect on the analogy of
engineers going into a biology context and saying: "Look, this is
Biology, but it is also called a Part. We'll call it a biobrick. But
this is a re-usable Part. It is characterized. We summarize these
characteristics on a Data Sheet." Then the engineers facepalming
themselves when the biologists respond: "Yea but I don't want to get
distracted by reading a data sheet. It is too much of a steep learning
curve. I'm just going to continue doing these custom cut & paste jobs."


You can continue to try to offer convincing points for why Arduino is a
good design choice in today's world of course...

## Jonathan Cline
## jcline@ieee.org
## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223
########################

On 3/24/15 12:50 PM, Cathal Garvey wrote:
> > Biology analogy: we can also pipette using straws, and recommend that
> > everyone do this (esp years ago when pipettes were expensive), but
> > why recommend this today? Buy a real pipette, the real tool.
>
> To borrow that analogy, if straws were as accurate and easier to use
> for 99% of use cases than micropippettes, you can be damned sure we'd
> recommend straws over micropippettes. The fact that straws are,
> actually, terrible is the reason we recommend serious people buy
> (cheaper, off-brand) micropippettes.
>
> And, for 99% of the stuff a person on this list is likely to want to
> do that can be done with a microcontroller at all, arduino is just
> fine, so why recommend something with a steeper (read: distracting)
> learning curve and longer development times? Because it'll scale
> better someday? Because the difference of €5 means you're more likely
> to get a product out this year than next, or the year after that, so
> "scaling" begins to sound more like "timewasting".
>
> Don't penny-pinch early and don't over-optimise early. If an arduino
> can help you ship a thing today instead of tomorrow, always go
> Arduino. If you need something bare-metal with ultra-low cost and no
> code overhead (i.e. the overhead is put on you in dev-hours instead of
> being built-in), sure; get something else.
>
> On 24/03/15 19:40, Jonathan Cline wrote:
>> I think the snip below is the clarification which leads to agreement.
>> When I say Arduino, I mean AVR hardware based kits. I'm not talking
>> about the software, which, since it is compatible with better hardware,
>> then the obvious choice is to pick the better hardware. Why use Lego
>> when you can easily switch to using real nuts & bolts. The software
>> used for Arduino is java based on Processing out of MIT which is still
>> good for it's purposes.
>>
>> Regarding cost, the points mentioned pro/con have been simultaneously on
>> both sides of the fence so watch out. Typically pro-Arduino peeps will
>> argue for the kits because they don't require purchase of a programmer
>> then later will also argue that higher individual cost of boards are
>> okay because price is not a concern (the programmer is a single tool,
>> one time minimal cost) . Since this circular argument doesn't make
>> sense it probably just goes back to the pro-Arduino peeps preferring the
>> choice because of the glossy pictures and the perception of community
>> (much larger and helpful communities to help with real designs exist,
>> simply go find them). The best design choice is to buy a $20 chip
>> programmer as a 1-time purchase, and buy some cheap chips and cheap
>> copper boards and solder 'em up (this is scalable, longer term, more
>> educational) . This was also the recommendation on numerous chip
>> discussion lists for anyone serious about building anything more
>> interesting than simple blinking led's (it's not just my opinion). But
>> even this point is less necessary today anyway with the new hardware
>> choices as you've said, especially with built-in USB downloading across
>> the board. The choices steering toward using Arduino hardware are simply
>> even less valid today.
>>
>>
>> Biology analogy: we can also pipette using straws, and recommend that
>> everyone do this (esp years ago when pipettes were expensive), but why
>> recommend this today? Buy a real pipette, the real tool.
>>
>> ## Jonathan Cline
>> ## jcline@ieee.org
>> ## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223
>> ########################
>>
>> On 3/24/15 12:04 PM, Nathan McCorkle wrote:
>>> Arduino is also not just the hardware, it's the
>>> IDE and community and libraries. People have ported different/better
>>> hardware to arduino-land (teensy, MSP430 via Energia, probably others
>>> I don't know of).
>>
>

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